Today’s Guest

Jamie Crippin
Sydney-Shelby YMCA

Episode Summary

In this fantastic episode we welcome Jamie Crippin from the Sydney-Shelby YMCA.

Jamie lets us look behind the scenes at what it is like to implement Podio in a thriving organisation like a local YMCA – how she gets buy-in, where it makes an impact and what she’s still working on achieving.

This is a great opportunity to hear from someone who is self-taught and who has built a journey with Podio across a couple of different companies. It’s a great insight into how you can bring Podio into your company and what easy wins you can shoot for.

Show Links:

Sydney-Shelby YMCA
Jordan’s Email Overview Video 1
Jordan’s Email Overview Video 2
Try out smrtPhone for free for 30 Days
Want to be on the show?
Register Now

Listen Now

Audio Transcription

Jordan Fleming 0:00
Hello, it’s Jordan here just before we dive into the episode, I want to remind everyone to please go off to iTunes, Google Play wherever you listen to and give us a like give us a rating shared around. The more that we get this done, the more people can learn the delights of podio and of course it helps us and make sure we can make more podcasts. If you wanting to be a guest on the show, head over to www.wearegamechangers.com and take a look at the podcast page. Put your details in. We always love speaking to new people. This episode fantastic. Great to hear from Jamie and learn about her experience. And let’s dive right in.

Narrator 0:42
Welcome to powered by podio! Automation is everything. Supercharge your business with podio. Get ready for another episode of supercharged! with Jordan Samuel Fleming your weekly dive into the awesome impact workflow and automation can have on your business when it’s powered by Podio. Join us each week as we learn from the top podio partners in the world as we investigate system integrations and add ons and hear from real business owners who have implemented podio into their business. Now join your host Jordan Samuel Fleming, CEO of Gamechangers for this week’s episode.

Jordan Fleming 1:25
Hey everybody, and welcome to this episode of supercharged! I’m your host Jordan Samuel Fleming here to talk all about the power of workflow and automation, when your business is powered by podio. Today’s guest is Jamie Crippin of the Sydney Shelby YMCA. I can’t believe I muffed that up given I just practised it. Anyway, Jamie, welcome to the podcast. Introduce yourself, please.

Jamie Crippin 1:48
Yeah, great to be here. My name is Jamie Crippin, Sydney Shelby YMCA. I am the membership and programme director here. I am just happy to be here. I love podio and love to talk about it. So my staff would tell you that.

Jordan Fleming 2:05
So you’re one of those. I remember when I first brought first Andrew Cranston who works with me here at game changes, you may have seen him on the globiflow. forums. I remember way back years ago, when when he was first kind of getting into podio he he said he was gonna print up a sign and put it on his desk and said all roads lead to podio is that as well?

Jamie Crippin 2:31
Oh my gosh, for sure.

Jordan Fleming 2:36
yes. Citrix really. It’s marketing a marketing idea for them. They should they should take a look at that. So how tell me? Uh, you know, obviously passionate about podio How did you first get involved with it? How did you first find it?

Jamie Crippin 2:50
So I actually started working for a company, briefly, I worked for them, but they had podio. I, they said, Hey, we use this podio thing. And I got on and to be honest with you, they weren’t using it. Truly. I kind of open it up. I’m like, What is this, like, I had to really dig into it, because it didn’t make any sense to me at first. But once I started digging into it and figuring out what it was, I realised that they, they weren’t using it really the way they should be using it. And so I started re kind of doing and helping them out setting it up. And just through that I really got to love. Love it. And when I went to my next job, and it didn’t have it, I was kind of lost. Like, um, can I gotta show you guys something because we need this because I just I couldn’t, I had gotten to just, I loved it. And they’re just I couldn’t work without it.

Jordan Fleming 3:43
Well, I mean, hey, I I do even my personal life in podio. I mean, I you know, podio has everything of mine. It’s like, you know, so I get it completely. It simply when you said, you know, they weren’t using it, kind of to that full extent they weren’t really using it. What What did you what, what was it automation they were using? Was it the data structure? What were you finding that, you know, you suddenly discovered, as you dug into it, that how much more What was that, that that really sparked in you.

Jamie Crippin 4:16
So the biggest thing they were doing was they were using the forms on their website. But when I got in there to look at that there was tonnes that they’d never looked at. And so they were losing all this business from people that were asking questions, and nobody was responding to them that that’s where all our website was going. And you know, it was just that they had gotten busy and nobody went in to look at it. So that’s when I discovered the workflows and like, Hey, we can do a, you know, notification, we can do a task we can do on that kind of thing. So in their structure just wasn’t quite there either. I think they had too much. And it just didn’t have any cohesiveness. So those were kind of the two things that I did to help them kind of organise and make it a little bit better.

Jordan Fleming 5:03
And then of course, as you moved forward, you were able to, I guess, build podio from the ground up in when you moved in that must have been, you know, I mean, that that’s a learning curve in itself when you start to, to think it, you know, when you start from scratch, you have to start thinking about data structure and all that. What was that kind of like for you to move into that? And what what things did you realise?

Jamie Crippin 5:29
So it was kind of different, because they’re a little bit two different worlds a lot, two different worlds. Um, so obviously, you know, that’s the great thing about podio, you make it fit for whatever your business in your industry is. So, from the ground up, really was just me trying to think about, okay, what’s going on here at this facility? And what do they need? And how can we make podio fit with that, for one example of the first thing I started with with them was, you know, we’re a large organisation with tonnes of part time staff that just don’t you don’t see your part time staff for a week, you know, so to be able to communicate things. And then we also have many departments here, that even though they work together, they don’t always know what’s going on between departments. But each department needs to know what’s going on, especially the front, our front desk here at the Y they’ve got to know what’s going on in every different department, because they’re the front door or the front line. So communication was the thing I started with. I started with a just one workspace that pretty much would allow that front desk person to go in there. We use the activity stream every day, making sure that everybody reads through that. And it’s really just been a game changer for communication here. So that’s where I started. And then the next round was the facility calendar. So here, they’re just nobody knew what was going on, you know, always have this. Oh, I thought I could use the gym. Nope, it’s got this going on. And they I mean, they had some things. So it’s not like they didn’t have that going on. No, they had a calendar every week that they did so. So some of that was working to a point. But there were just some departments that didn’t always look at that calendar, the calendar was paper. So putting that all together, and all those departments coming together on one place was helpful.

Jordan Fleming 7:19
Absolutely. So when you I mean, interesting to you to pick up on your come your comment about communication and starting with communication, you know, so what you’re talking about when you talk about communication, there is really more intra communication, right? It’s internal communication. So, um, you know, and that, that I think is a really is a really interesting point. Were you able to phase out internal emails? Did you try and tackle that? have you managed to do it? Do you want to still do it? Like, what kind of internal communication because that’s to me, one of the, you know, every time I see internal emails, I twitch for about four minutes. So how did you know what was that? How did people accept it?

Jamie Crippin 8:04
Yes, so I’m laughing because I’m still working on it. Obviously, it’s definitely something that has taken me a while to get everybody on board. And if I’m slowly getting cheerleaders every day, in fact, at noon, today, I’m meeting with our wellness department who has finally said, Hey, I think our department needs podio. So I’m like, Yay, like, every time it’s like, Yay. And so yeah, I’m getting there we are. My marketing girl was my first one to jump on board. That has been amazing. We used to have paper marketing requests. And now you know, it’s great to be able to get in there. And I try to tell everybody, so this is where, where I’ve really gotten somewhere with everybody because they’re like, Well, you know, the same thing, it just it podio, and same thing, it’s gonna be a lot of things coming at you. And, and what’s the difference? And I tried to tell him this, you know, with podio, you can go to one topic, and everything’s right there. emails, you have to search and if you don’t have the right keywords in that email, you won’t find that. So I’ve started to get them on board to understand that, oh, if I need to know about this meeting, I just go there. And so it’s been a slow process I’ve gotten I’d say 25% of the of everybody using podio to communication to me communicating set of email, um, but I do laugh because I’m like, you I cringe when I get email. I’m like, No, come on, responded in podio not here. So I’m forwarding the email to podio. So that I’ll have it there.

Jordan Fleming 9:37
Yeah, no, I internally emails to me are the death of productivity, and I’ve always hated them. And we’ve phased them out completely in our company. You know, and if it’s if someone’s new to the company, they learn very quickly that not deemed to ever do an internal email and then stop cc me on things right like it does just stop randomly cc Just cuz you want me to see it, if you know, all of our emails are in podio. So just show me where that is, you know, put me onto the email and podio. And I’ll deal with it as I need to. So that’s quite interesting. And I mean, when you say email, you know, and you’re forwarding emails in. What is that using the email to app functionality?

Jamie Crippin 10:20
Yeah, and that’s what we use. We don’t I haven’t dug into the emails inside podio doing the globimail yet, but it’s, it’s a possibility. Obviously, I gotta get everybody to really buy in first. But yeah, I use the email app myself, just to put something in that I’ve gotten that needs to be attached to a product project.

Jordan Fleming 10:43
I’ve said, well, definitely recommend looking at the GlobiMail options, there are a number of ways to do it. And certainly, I think we, you know, I’ve got a couple videos up on the GlobiMail sites of the way we instal it, and I and I definitely recommend it, because the moment you can get emails into podio, then suddenly, your, your your transparency across the teams massively increases. So I mean, communications is an interesting one, where you are bringing people in, obviously, since you’ve got a lot of people and, and potentially part time people, etc. What has been, you know, what have been the difficult bits maybe of introducing podio? You know, have you have you had a lot of pushback, have you had people kind of lost? I think sometimes people get a bit lost in podio. What’s been your experience of that?

Jamie Crippin 11:37
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s definitely a problem sometimes with with us here. And the biggest pushback here was just paper trying to get everybody away from printing paper. For example, I’ve, I’ve put all of our communications digitally in podio, under a files library, you know, I’m using the filters so that if they need something, I mean, they can even know where location is. And, you know, if they need to find a form, you can search and I, I need to update a form, I just need to update it. And podio I don’t have to remember all the 10 locations that it’s posted in that it’s kept in. So I think the biggest push backs been the paper and just getting rid of paper all together, I still find that people print, I actually have this gentleman that he has a binder still, and he’ll print everything that I do in podio and put it in his binder. So I’m still getting there with everybody, but they know that if you’re going to do that, that’s fine. But I’m going to update it in podio. So I think that’s been the best way to do it is just say, Hey, you know, if you’re going to print it that way you print it, but I’m, I’m not, I’m not going to help, I’m just going to do it. podio. So, I mean, like I said, it slowly helps. Because even even the gentleman I’m talking about has recognised that there’s been a huge change in communication here. I mean, I’ve had a lot of people say, you know, communication is so much better right now. Um, you know, that the calendar has helped tremendously. So I do think they’re seeing the benefits of it, it’s slow, but but they’re seeing it

Jordan Fleming 13:11
well, and when you get start getting buy in like that, then you can, you know, the more buy and you get, the more you’re able to slowly expand the capability or you system and and introduce more workflow elements, that that will definitely, you know, help out and, and then they’ll start to see the benefit of that. And then you can level up again and again and again. So, so

Jamie Crippin 13:35
that several times.

Jordan Fleming 13:36
Yeah. And how have you been? I mean, as someone who’s sort of, you know, explored globiflow or Citrix PWA well, you know, and, and, and have gotten really into it. How have you found the learning curve all for yourself even on the the globiflow slash CitrixPWA side of things.

Jamie Crippin 14:01
So I’m definitely one of those kind of people that will figure it out. I’ve always been that way. I’m kind of self taught. I have a lot of people say, Oh, go to Jamie, she’s good at computers. It’s just that I’ll just figure it out. It’s not that I am, you know, all of a sudden can know how to do something. I just I’ll figure it out. So I think that there’s things that are have been a little more difficult for me to to, to figure out. But the Help is awesome. I just kind of go in there. And I’ll lay in bed at night think I wonder if I could do this. And I’ll go back in and just I’ll try it a couple times. I found that I’ll have a workspace that I is my test workspace. And I’ll kind of make an app and make this and make a flow and test it out and be like okay, yep, that’s the way it’s gonna work. So I’m definitely one of those trial and error type people to figure things out, so it’s not meant too bad at all. I’m sure there’s so much more I have not dug into but, um, give me a couple years, I’ll get it. Well,

Jordan Fleming 15:05
you say, you know, there’s the answer to I wonder if I can do this. There’s almost always Yes. Almost always. I mean, there are some exceptions, but almost always Yes. And then the question becomes, should I do it? Not just Can I do it, but but Should I do it? And, and it actually, I think there’s definitely a point where, I don’t know if if it’s taste or restraint has to come in. Because there’s, you know, I remember when I first started building podio, nine years ago, um, you know, I would, I thought I should automate everything. And I should, you know, I thought that, Oh, this is the, this is how I could do a process so that everybody follows it. And it became actually more restrictive and a pain in the ass. And that kind of level of, of balance between workflow and pain, and friction with your staff becomes immediate. How is, you know, have you found that it has happened to you?

Jamie Crippin 16:08
I yeah, absolutely. I’ve had some things that I’ve done that I’ve had to pull back and go, Okay, guys, sorry, that was too much. Like, I get it. I just get so excited. You know, it’s like, oh, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this. And it’s like, Whoa, yeah, sorry. They’re all like, I’m getting all these notifications, these tasks and what’s going on, and I actually, just this week, dial back a few things, and I’m trying to just make a little bit more simpler, because you’re right, you know, I get excited about it, sometimes I have to remember that, you know, it has to be a little bit more simple for especially part time. And like I said, I’m working with a lot of part time people. So you know, they’re not working with it every day. So they can’t be they’re not gonna always remember and it needs to be an easy process, sometimes for them to so I have had to dial back on things that I’ve just went too far with.

Jordan Fleming 16:58
Absolutely. And, you know, you make a really valid point there with, with people who don’t use podio all the time, I do find that sometimes, I’m you know, it is not podio is not as intuitive as a web, you know, as a as a website navigation or something, you know, people can configure pretty much figured out any website in the world, because they’re all basically the same navigation links and pages. But podio is one of those things where, you know, I you watch people who only use it once every month, and they’re they’re going Wait, where the hell was this? Again? How do I find this? And I think you have to be very careful about how you design systems, specifically because of that, right?

Jamie Crippin 17:39
Yes, absolutely. I one of the things I found that helped a little bit is if they would allow me to go especially, maybe not so much my part time, but my full time staff that’s trying to figure it out work for their department, is showing them the dashboard and how you can create those tiles to help you because one of the things that they’ll complain about the most is, I just don’t know where to go. Like you said, I, I have supposed to supposedly tasks Do I have a alert for me? Do I have a notification? Like, where do I go when I get into podio? And I have all this stuff? Where do I start? So I have, you know, help them say you can let’s start with your dashboard. And I think if they utilise that dashboard, that’s what I’ve done. Because I found that for myself, you know, sometimes I get involved in way too many workspaces. And I’m clicking and clicking, clicking. And all of a sudden, my this is saving me time becomes this is creating time for me, because I’m trying to check every workspace. So I have found that if you use your personal workspace correctly, or your you know, your it’s your homepage dashboard.

Yes, yes, it definitely helps if you know how to use that and create the tiles of the most important things that you need to check that has helped a great deal.

Jordan Fleming 18:49
I 100% agree, I can’t remember when I made the switch to realise like, I think I always used it a little. But then it’s sort of a lightning moment to lightning bolt moment happened when I when I created the dashboard I have now and it suddenly became a real health check of the businesses I run as well. And the real, you know, I could I could when I log in, I see all the factors that matter to me. And as long as these numbers are all zero or these numbers show me this, then I I’m not really too concerned. So I think that’s a really good point about kind of aggregation to an to an easy centralised point.

Jamie Crippin 19:27
Yep, absolutely. Yeah.

Jordan Fleming 19:29
So, let me ask so in terms of, you know, obviously you you have a lot of experience now, kind of a lot more experience building podio you globiflow slash Citrix PWA Have you been experiment? Have you been linking other systems in Do you do do do you use any add ons? Do you use any other systems or software services with podio? what’s what’s been your experience of, of expanding the repertoire

Jamie Crippin 19:59
One of the things I do connect is OneDrive, which has been very helpful. We have, for example, we have schedules for our pool schedules for our gym schedules for our wellness classes. And that was kind of a hindrance when they needed to update it, then it needs to be updated on the website, and it needs to be updated in podio than it needed updated here and there. So connecting it with one drive and allows them to go ahead and update their file. And as soon as they say that, it’s safe for everybody. Um, so that’s been very helpful. I also just got into super menu, which has had some fun.

Jordan Fleming 20:35
Better Super menu.

Jamie Crippin 20:36
Yeah, yeah. So that’s, that’s been one. I’m trying to think if there’s anything else I connect my calendar. Um, not everybody here does, but I do have my calendar connected. I’m trying to think,

Jordan Fleming 20:49
I presume when you’re talking about better super menu, you’re also talking about the sheet view. Yeah, cuz I think Sheet view is one of the is one of the things that and momentum tools as another, you know,

Jamie Crippin 21:01
that one, too? Yeah, that was like a couple months ago. So I haven’t dug in more to that one. But yes,

Jordan Fleming 21:07
yeah, but better super menu and momentum tools both have that ability to bulk edit, and bulk editing, like dragging a Category field like you wouldn’t in Excel or making a bulk edit the way momentum tools does, can save you so much needless time. It is a massive, massive, massive thing, I think. And and even just the the menu part, I think for people who don’t know, podio, well, to be able to roll their mouse over the podio icon and see, the key apps that they care about, I think can be a big help for them.

Jamie Crippin 21:43
Absolutely. It’s just a quicker way. I think, I think what it does more than anything, you talked about everybody that knows how to do a website, because there’s all these click, I think it kind of mirrors a website for them. And it makes them feel comfortable. As weird as that sounds.

Jordan Fleming 21:57
No, it doesn’t sound what weird, I did get it up to uptake. Getting people familiar and comfortable in podio is not necessarily as straightforward as it should be. But once it happens, then then magic, you know, you know, definitely can occur. Without without question, and I think your your point of the OneDrive is a good example of a very simple integration, that suddenly just saves hassle.

Jamie Crippin 22:26
Yep. Absolutely.

Jordan Fleming 22:28
Yeah. And that’s, that’s, that’s really, that’s really quite interesting. Um, and in terms of, you know, in terms of, I suppose. I don’t know how to put this, like, when you’re looking at workflow elements, what have been the biggest kind of what have been the biggest things you’ve been able to realise workflow wise, in terms of saving time, or, or adding efficiency? How has that impacted for you,

Jamie Crippin 22:57
I would have to say, the biggest thing it’s done for me, is, for example, when I have a new hire, there are so many things connected to a new hire that you have to get done. And I just, you know, I’m so busy, I forgot, somebody will come to me Two months later and say, hey, did I ever get I didn’t get a shirt. Simple as that, you know, like, Oh, yeah, never give me a shirt, you know, Ah, sorry. Or can I get a name tag off, shoot, you know, just a little thing. So I automated that process to be able to, you know, as soon as they hit 30 days, it automatically tasks me these items, as soon as they hit 60 days a task to me this and then even better, I have it so that when their year comes up, it automatically pops up that they’re ready for review. And then it even I even I love the part where I can put in automatically creates an email like email body for me to send to my HR and I just have it plugged in the date of their start the you know, all their little information where I don’t even have to create the email anymore. It’s just it goes in my task and I copy it and paste it and it’s good to go. So just that’s probably the biggest thing that flows done for me is to keep me what’s the word I’m looking for? on task ahead

Jordan Fleming 24:13
ahead of the game. Yeah, yeah, well, what and the next step is obviously to automate that email

Jamie Crippin 24:21
thing I can do that eventually so

Jordan Fleming 24:23
that’s a pretty easy flow I can we can show you how to do that quickly cuz that that is we use automated communication for most of our clients systems, automated text messaging and automated emails are our bread and butter for a lot of them you know, if you’re talking about a property management company that needs to remind people of rent or or whatever, you know, the amount of little bits of time the the five minutes you save every single time a task like that happens is is a huge time saver. Once you add it you know once you count that up over a week. And I think people don’t realise that right.

Jamie Crippin 25:04
Absolutely. Absolutely. I definitely agree with that. That’s our next step. So

Jordan Fleming 25:09
and in terms of in terms of like finding help, you know, I think I’ve seen you use the globiflow forums, I mean that have you found that to be a pretty useful place to get help?

Jamie Crippin 25:22
Very much so and I don’t post as much questions because I find the questions if you search, you just got to know what to search. So usually, I’ll search and I’ll spend some time reading. Yes, my husband, he’ll tell you, he has to yell at me at night to get off my computer. And usually, I’m searching that thread to see what I can find.

Jordan Fleming 25:41
At least you search man, the amount of people who just go straight to asking as opposed to just like, why don’t I see if anybody’s asked the question before? Because usually, they have Yeah, and yeah, for what I was active on that workspace for a while, and I remember, you know, you’d be like, Man, this is gonna ask four times, come on. Yeah, that’s, I think it’s also important, you know, you know, your experience with that. Not everybody who uses globiflow slash Citrix PWA is in that workspace, and I think they should be I really try and recommend people to be. And I mean, I understand why Citrix doesn’t mandate, it doesn’t automatically add you. But I do think it’s a resource that is just vital that people take advantage of Right. I mean, how much have you learned over the past years?

Jamie Crippin 26:31
Well, you know, it’s funny, cuz, um, sometimes that’s where I get my ideas from somebody posting something to me going, Oh, that’s kind of cool idea. So I mean, it gives me ideas as well as it does help. I lately, the one that I had found on there was archiving, like talking about my files library, um, I found on that site, or the workspace, somebody had posted about it so that as soon as something expires, that it automatically archives, it moves it out of the all of the places that everybody up front sees, because after a while it was becoming, everybody’s like, wait, that’s the old Basketball League, that’s not this basketball league. And so they were getting confused. So it was the flow where you can copy it, and then you archive it to another app, and I didn’t realise you could copy the files over. So that kind of helps just, that whole process was kind of complicated at first, but when I found it on that on help site, it really helped a lot. A lot. That’s probably the biggest thing I found on there. That’s, that’s been a game changer.

Jordan Fleming 27:34
That’s fantastic. I know, I remember when I first realised that in a relationship field, you could choose to only show a specific view. And, and I remember finding that view, however, many years ago now, I mean, I think, but and what a what a change that was then to be able to only show the current items, and to and to not show the archived ones. And suddenly, or you know, and suddenly, one app could suffice for a lot of things. And, and you but but when you were searching it, and when you were linking forward, you were only seeing the things you need to do from from that field. And that suddenly opened up an enormous amount of possibilities.

Jamie Crippin 28:16
Yep, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jordan Fleming 28:19
Well, what’s I mean, what’s, what do you think is next in terms of your podio? learning? I mean, what are you kind of looking forward to, to getting your teeth into just as we, as we close out our 30 minutes,

Jamie Crippin 28:33
honestly, the mail, I would really like to integrate our mail a little bit more. And just getting the entire department to totally buy in, like I said, I have probably, I’m probably at 85 90% right now. So if I could get the whole entire organisation, um, you know, in, then that would be fantastic, because I’m definitely a believer in a tool works only if you use it, and if all of us use it. So that’s probably the biggest one like the mail, I would really like to get me on there.

Jordan Fleming 29:02
Well, if you haven’t seen it, I will forward you the videos that I’ve done for GlobiMail. Because we’ve certainly kind of come up with an inbox solution for podio. After years and years of trying to figure out how to do it best. We’ve come up with a solution that works pretty well. So I’ll forward that to you on podio chat, so you can take a look at it and and you’ll you’ll understand how to do it and globiflow and, and and GlobeiMail without any problems. Absolutely. That’d be great. Yeah, so that’s my that can be my contribution since I don’t post as much on globiflow forums anymore. Well, Jamie, um, thank you so much for joining us in the podcast. Um, just as a closing thought, any any I always like to ask any advice you have for people who are just starting out in podio. have, you know, as someone who’s who’s done it and become a relative experts in a short time, what advice would you give to newbies to Podio.

Jamie Crippin 29:57
I’d say Be patient and start small Definitely, you know, start small. Try one thing, think of that one process that you want to do there automate or you know, get all in one spot and just start there. Start small, be patient. And it’s, it’s the best tool ever. I’m telling you, like I said, you go to another job and you’re lost because they don’t have it. Yeah. So be patient with it. It’s, it’s great.

Jordan Fleming 30:25
Absolutely. Well, Jamie, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today. It’s been a pleasure to meet you. Pleasure to speak with you. And I’m sure I will see you on the globey flow forums over the coming month.

Jamie Crippin 30:37
I’m sure you will. Thank you. It’s been great at being here and talking to you.

Narrator 30:42
You’ve been listening to supercharged with Jordan Samuel Fleming Subscribe today on iTunes, Google Play or